48HOURS Forum

Ant Timpson
From: New Zealand
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 317

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What do we deliver our film on?

We are busy testing options for file delivery and are trying to come up with a solution that best suits all regions and the technical level of all teams. Stay tuned.

UPDATE from Tarlen

The file-based hand-in specs have now been specified, and are available on the rules page.

Quick Summary:

Video Codec: h.264
Audio Codec: AAC-LC
File Extension: mp4 or mov
Framerate: 25
Resolution: 1024 x 576 (SD), 1280 x 720, 1920 x 1080
Field Order: Progressive playback only (deinterlaced video if shot interlaced)
Video Bitrate: Variable bit rate encoding no higher than 10 megabits per second. We recommend the following bitrates for highest quality at the following frame sizes
1024 x 576: 3 megabits per second (i.e 3mb/s or 3000 kb/s)
1280 x 720: 6 megabits per second (i.e 6mb/s or 6000 kb/s)
1920 x 1080: 8 megabits per second (i.e 8mb/s or 8000 kb/s)
Audio Bitrate: 192 kilobits per second (i.e 192 kb/s)

Filename: The file should be named with your team name followed by 2011
e.g Team Artificial Nipple should have a file called Artificial Nipple2011.mp4 or Artificial Nipple2011.mov

Your SINGLE FILE must include the following video content in the following order:

* Team intro 30 Seconds or Less
* Info Card Team, Title, Genre, City - White on Black 10 Seconds
* (optional)Team Logo 10 Seconds max
* Short Film Between 1 minute and 7 minutes max, including credits.
* Black At least 5 seconds

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DonnieDarko
From: Rotorua
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 31

Oh Nooooo.... where's the man from U.N.C.L.E ?????

2011 - "Gooseville" - Crime
2010 - "The Separation of Sidney Manson"
Auckland Finalist - 2 nominations - Won Best Art Direction.
2009 - "How to make friends without actually meeting people"
6 nominations - National Winner - "sexiest looking short"
2007 - "The History of the Apee"
After Effects Animation - Commissioned by Ant for screening at the Auckland Finals.
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zer05um
From: Auckland (ex Taranaki)
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 100

Tuned and awaiting...

______________________________
2014 [Auckland] "Decay Rate" - Mistaken Identity
2013 [Auckland] "Backup/Restore" - Robots, Cyborgs & Androids
2012 [Auckland] "Cherry Π" - Romantic Comedy
2011 [Auckland] "Things Best Forgotten" - Mystery [Not so much Late as completely absent]
2010 [Taranaki] "Broken" - Road Movie - Regional Prizes: Sound & Vision Sexiest Short | Most Realistic Moment
2009 [Hamilton] "Te Hararei" - Family Film - Te Reo Maori Language Film
2008 [Hamilton] "47:53:00" - Horror [Late]
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NITRO
From: Wellington
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 350

I'll take anything that negates the possibility of field order transfer stuff ups

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mikedensem
From: Christchurch
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 315

I'd like to drop a quicktime video file onto a usb key.
I'd also like to avoid transcoding my final Prores 422 format...

--------------------
2013 - [boo hoo - didn't participate]
2012 - The Juxtaposition - Action Movie: INFUSION
2011 - Princess Zoe Films - Fad Movie: Contra-fable-gooble 'ness
2010 - Princess Zoe Films (Rubber Tears) - Road Movie: 'Whole Wide World'
2009 - Team 'Rubber Tears' - Parallel World: 'Smoke and Mirrors'
2008 - Team 'Rubber Tears' - Juvenile Delinquent: 'Lipstick Karma'
2007 - Team 'Rubber Tears' - Grindhouse: 'Grindhouse Day Presents'
2006 - Team 'Rubber Tears' - War/Western: 'An Unruly Patch of Land'
2005 - Team 'Imagic Mushrooms' - Pretentious Art: 'Erar Muidem'
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Ant Timpson
From: New Zealand
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 317

What we have is that no one wants to say this is the way you should do it in case it backfires. We have some spooked tech people out there. And for good reason.. file delivery is one big can of ugly.

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nimlin
From: Otaki
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1123

i love this game! bring it on mr T. bring it all on

YouTube has my stuff

http://nz.youtube.com/nimlin

the coffee pixie has been freed! yay! all is good in the world. someone please save Nimlin!
Otaki is the centre of the universe!
(because Aunty Hira said so, and she should know)
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Craig Parkes
From: Auckland
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 127

There is one issue that is unavoidable - deinterlaced delivery of interlaced shot video.

Getting interlaced file delivery right is very problematic, especially with the file based players out there that will make this possible (I have seen plenty of network promos and tvc's output in the last year with reversed field order, and those are being generated by people who do this for a living.)

The solution is to deinterlace, but then fast motion pans that looked acceptable in the edit when interlaced will have unacceptable stutter when deinterlaced on output.

Any form of file delivery that works correctly with interlaced output is, unfortunately, a no go for playback because playback systems handle a relatively limited range of not only file types, but also a small range of the specs of a given file type. So the chances of one interlaced file working is pretty bad.

So it comes down to this somewhat subjective thought stutter isn't as bad as burnt in fields.

I'm happy to say: Deliver X using Y - BUT you'll get stutter if you pan fast, even when shooting interlaced.

Really isn't another viable option given the limitations of the competition.

Other than sticking with MiniDV and DVD that is, which in the case of DVD is difficult, but ubiquitous and works, and the case of mini DV is simple, but growingly uncommon.

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treefrog
From: Dunedin, Otago
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1070

I'm a tech/geek and yje file delivery thing is screaming blue balls for me. what? How? Res? Frame size? WTF?

Can we at least have a concensus of FRAME SIZE & rate?

720 x 576 for SD contributions 25fps PAL stereo/dual mono
and
1440 x 1020 for HD contributions 25fps PAL stereo/dual mono

Filetype: avi or mov. The most common types, I believe.

As I understand it, and I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, City Managers receive a Panasonic HDD player/recorder to compile the competitors films, as video files, for Heats playouts.

From previous experience I 'believe' these devices can absorb most formats, avi/divx/mov/blah blah blah, and will replay at a resolution best suited for whatever projector its attached for display (hardware compression & re-encoding.)

Can HQ double check on this please, apply SOME FORM OF GUIDE to allow us (city Managers & techs ) to make our own investigations.

Discuss.

2009-2013 The 48 Hours Dunedin City Manager, all-round film geek.
2008 - 'Oh! My Gucci Boots!' - Cats of a Feather - Director -*Best Costuming
2007 - 'ARC' - Schrodghers Cat - D.O.P.
2006 - 'Scarred-The Directors Cut' - Strange Attractor - Audience Favourite
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Craig Parkes
From: Auckland
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 127

File type depends on playback hardware, hardware depends on cost and integration with existing hardware (projectors etc.)

Hardware has to change for file based delivery playback, as the only cross platform spec I know of designed to handle this sort of thing at a consumer level that traditional players will work with is AVCHD.

AVCHD is too problematic because authoring is an entire file directory structure - it's not just putting a file on a USB key, it still requires authoring software, and authoring software is even less common the DVD authoring software and there are greater compatibility issues, and there isn't a free/near free solution that can be pointed to.

Support for other formats (DivX etc.) is too patchy/inconsistent for us to offer a clear spec (again, these are often wrappers which can include a wide variety of codecs.)

I have a guide in development for the method we have been testing - but the bug bear from a quality point of view is the deinterlacing and resultant stutter. It's a hit that's pretty troublesome, but can't be avoided by the looks of things.

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treefrog
From: Dunedin, Otago
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1070

Well done Craig, cheers.

Agreed, AVCHD is a problematic solution, especially for 'low-rent' teams.

Looking forward to your wisdom.

2009-2013 The 48 Hours Dunedin City Manager, all-round film geek.
2008 - 'Oh! My Gucci Boots!' - Cats of a Feather - Director -*Best Costuming
2007 - 'ARC' - Schrodghers Cat - D.O.P.
2006 - 'Scarred-The Directors Cut' - Strange Attractor - Audience Favourite
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tarlen
From: Cactuslab
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 241

in reply to treefrog:

Filetype: avi or mov. The most common types, I believe.

I'd agree with you, but also go further to point out that both AVI and MOV are containers, and as such don't have specific codecs associated with them.

Most .mov files you come across that were created recently probably have h.264 encoded video, as that is the most popular codec on the web right now (ie - YouTube and Vimeo use it). Audio would either be AAC, MP3 or possibly uncompressed.

Not too sure about .avi files, but last time I used them a lot, they were mostly DivX or XviD encoded video, with MP3 audio.

Hence the issues surrounding file-based delivery. It would be good if the organisers could say: "Download this program. If your video plays properly with this, it will work on our hardware". Unfortunately most downloaded programs rely on codecs already installed on the PC in question, at which point it all falls apart again.

2010 - "Lift" (Ghost - Lighting/FX) - Late
2009 - "Omnipedia" (Religious - Producer/Editor)
2008 - "The Perfectionist" (Superhero - Producer/Director/Editor)
2007 - "Bane" (Monster - Producer/Director/Editor)
2005 - "Super Boy Meets Girl" (Superhero - FX)
2004 - "House of Raging Women" (Educational - FX)
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tarlen
From: Cactuslab
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 241

in reply to Craig Parkes:

Hardware has to change for file based delivery playback, as the only cross platform spec I know of designed to handle this sort of thing at a consumer level that traditional players will work with is AVCHD.

Wouldn't the easiest solution for playback of file-based content be a laptop?

The issue I have with AVCHD is that most consumer authoring software older than about 2 years doesn't support it, and I suspect a LOT of people who compete would have no experience with it at all.

My preference would be h.264, with either AAC or MP3 audio. In that case, videos could be tested with Quicktime, and if they can be played in Quicktime on one PC, they should work in Quicktime on another.

Of course the "should" is the problem.

2010 - "Lift" (Ghost - Lighting/FX) - Late
2009 - "Omnipedia" (Religious - Producer/Editor)
2008 - "The Perfectionist" (Superhero - Producer/Director/Editor)
2007 - "Bane" (Monster - Producer/Director/Editor)
2005 - "Super Boy Meets Girl" (Superhero - FX)
2004 - "House of Raging Women" (Educational - FX)
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treefrog
From: Dunedin, Otago
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1070

Theory, I love theory. I have degrees in Theory.

Also totally useless.

2009-2013 The 48 Hours Dunedin City Manager, all-round film geek.
2008 - 'Oh! My Gucci Boots!' - Cats of a Feather - Director -*Best Costuming
2007 - 'ARC' - Schrodghers Cat - D.O.P.
2006 - 'Scarred-The Directors Cut' - Strange Attractor - Audience Favourite
Reply

c0ina
From: Auckland
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 265

I reckon this year that all deliveries need to be handed in on hdcamsr full rastor 1920x1980 23.976fps. Anyone who fails to comply is disqualified.

Alastair / twitter: @c0ina & @hybridmovies facebook: hybridmovies

2014 - POLYPHONY by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Director, Producer, DOP) City Finalist, Audience Favourite
2013 - PARALYSIS by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Director, Producer) / PJ Wild Card, Grand Finalist, Best Cinematography
2012 - SURCEASE by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Director, Producer)
2011 - ROUNDELAY by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Director, Producer, Co-Writer)
2010 - CHICANE by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Director, Producer, Co-Writer) / City Finalist, Best Cinematography, Best Use Of Line
2009 - TO HAVE AND TO HOLD by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Producer, Finishing Editor)
2008 - DANCE-O-LUTION by Hybrid Motion Pictures (Producer & Finishing Editor)
2007 - DIE, LESBIAN VAMPIRES! by Hydra Motion Pictures (Producer, DOP & Editor) / Late
2006 - 16 BULLETS by Hydra Motion Pictures (Producer & Editor) / City Finalist, Runner Up, Best Screenplay, Audience Favourite
2005 - CASE OF THE TLUC by Expuls (Editor)
2004 - ICE HIEST by Expuls (Editor)
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Thairocksuperstar
From: Wanaka
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 73

Would VOB / VIDEO_TS files on a usb drive be any sort of solution (assuming past problems with dvd's are mostly media related )?

(I know there are smarter tech brains then mine working on this , so please ignore if it's a stupid suggestion)

2013 | Shooting And Cutting - Obsessive Relationship - "Oranges" (Writer/Shooter/Director/Actor/1 man team)
2012 | Sitting out this year. Producing a human kid instead.
2011 | Translucent Flexible Ducting - Musical/Dance - "The Row" (Writer/Lyricist/Director)
2010 | Squashed Pineapple Lump - Sex Ed Film - "Dig Deep,Dick" - DUNEDIN City Finalist- (Writer)
2009 | Wanaka Film Trust | - Horror - "Pick Up" - DUNEDIN City Finalist- (Writer/Actor/Director)
2008 | SuperNatural Productions - Buddy Film - "Silent Echo" (Co-Direct/Write/Shoot/Edit etc)
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Cookie
From: Awklyn
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 99

in reply to Thairocksuperstar:

Would VOB / VIDEO_TS files on a usb drive be any sort of solution

Yes they (VOB containers) are no problem to play back, but the quality and size issues of the mpeg-2/VOB format mean you are essentially playing a DVD-video. Many teams this year are asking for a higher quality presentation of their work.
Last year the MiniDV format allowed Cities to playback at 704X576 pixels on the big screen.

[ iPhone4 screen is 960X540pixels ].

'If you only see one movie this year - make sure it's yours!'
One day I'll be famous, I'll have my name in concrete.
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tarlen
From: Cactuslab
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 241

in reply to Cookie:

iPhone4 screen is 960X540pixels

I assume that's a typo. The iPhone 4 is 960x640, the iPad is 1024x768 and a lot of the larger Android phones are around 854x480. Android tablets are even higher.

Most (all?) TVs you can buy today are at least 720p (1380x720), and all the bigger ones are 1080p (1920x1080). YouTube and Vimeo both support at least 720p.

SD video (720x576) doesn't really cut it any more.

2010 - "Lift" (Ghost - Lighting/FX) - Late
2009 - "Omnipedia" (Religious - Producer/Editor)
2008 - "The Perfectionist" (Superhero - Producer/Director/Editor)
2007 - "Bane" (Monster - Producer/Director/Editor)
2005 - "Super Boy Meets Girl" (Superhero - FX)
2004 - "House of Raging Women" (Educational - FX)
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Cookie
From: Awklyn
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 99

in reply to tarlen:

I assume that's a typo

Yeah, typo (too much nit-picking)

sent from my key-pad

'If you only see one movie this year - make sure it's yours!'
One day I'll be famous, I'll have my name in concrete.
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Thairocksuperstar
From: Wanaka
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 73

in reply to Cookie:

Many teams this year are asking for a higher quality presentation of their work

Ah yes - doh! - I was thinking only about a reliable format and forgot that higher quality was the other motivation for change.

cheers

2013 | Shooting And Cutting - Obsessive Relationship - "Oranges" (Writer/Shooter/Director/Actor/1 man team)
2012 | Sitting out this year. Producing a human kid instead.
2011 | Translucent Flexible Ducting - Musical/Dance - "The Row" (Writer/Lyricist/Director)
2010 | Squashed Pineapple Lump - Sex Ed Film - "Dig Deep,Dick" - DUNEDIN City Finalist- (Writer)
2009 | Wanaka Film Trust | - Horror - "Pick Up" - DUNEDIN City Finalist- (Writer/Actor/Director)
2008 | SuperNatural Productions - Buddy Film - "Silent Echo" (Co-Direct/Write/Shoot/Edit etc)
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Craig Parkes
From: Auckland
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 127

in reply to tarlen:

Wouldn't the easiest solution for playback of file-based content be a laptop?

The issue I have with AVCHD is that most consumer authoring software older than about 2 years doesn't support it, and I suspect a LOT of people who compete would have no experience with it at all.

My preference would be h.264, with either AAC or MP3 audio. In that case, videos could be tested with Quicktime, and if they can be played in Quicktime on one PC, they should work in Quicktime on another.

.mov containers can be a bit of an issue due to A ) Gamma Shifts, and B) PC's without Quicktime/Quicktime Pro installs.

h.264 is certainly the most commonly available codec for delivery that will do the job right - finer details like bitrate, and the issue I mentioned of deinterlacing for hardware playback is the issue. Laptops are a bit of a non goer for playback because of 8 centres requiring playback, and also the virus issue of file based delivery, unless there was sponsorship to supply Macbook Pro's to all region organizers this is a hard cookie to crack (even then, that can STILL be problematic, because of calibration issues etc).

A hardware player seems like the best solution for consistency across regions.

But that's why interlacing is an issue - enough commonly employed mp4 encoding solutions (e.g. Quicktime, and Mpeg Streamclip which is free but based on Quicktime to some extent) do not support interlaced mp4 encoding, which is particularly problematic, and because of that I am not actually certain whether these players will also actually handled interlaced mp4's properly - for a good insight how complicated the standard actually is for h.264 the Wiki is instructive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC

By going through all that here is what I am now thinking...

One of the most fully featured h.264 encoders is the Main Concept encoder, which as a plugin for it's reference system is 890 Euro. No Go.

Procoder is the other most fully featured - that's around 400 US. No Go.

DivX Converter is cross platform (Mac and Windows) and will convert to h.264 but I believe in a MKV wrapper, and should handle interlacing... I had avoided it because it's pay software and I have found previous implementations of DivX to be buggy but at $19.99 US with a free 15 day trial version I think some further testing with the hardware players is in order.

Maybe, needs testing, but not ideal.

MPEG Streamclip was my next choice, because it's free and cross platform, but it's reliance on quicktime/inability to encode interlaced h.264s has proven a problem. Tested, might work, but not great solution because not handling interlacing.

x.264 can also do interlaced encoding, which leads me to Handbrake - Handbrake is a great app, but I preferred mpeg streamclip because Handbrake tries to do TOO MUCH for the user... You actually need to turn a lot of stuff in Handbrake OFF to get good results if you are planning on playing the resulting conversion back in full quality.

BUT if I can supply a custom preset for download for Handbrake this might work... The difficulty I think though is that the user will still need to add a command line command into a box on x.264 settings to tell the encoder if the footage is top field first or bottom field first, not sure if that can be done as a preset.

But I still don't know if the players in question will play the interlaced video properly even if I can get the encoding solution sorted for the contestants - so that will also need to be tested.

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